Tom Matlack wonders what would happen if men were allowed to be open about their lust.
A guy I know, a wonderful husband, recently confided in me that he loves female breasts. His wife is quite beautiful, but mothering has “ruined her tits,” he told me. He made clear to me that he intended to continue his interest in the female form in what he considered the least damaging way he could figure out—porn and strip clubs—so as to prevent a melt-down in his marriage. “My wife would freak out if she knew,” he said, “but I don’t want to end up doing something stupid like having an affair with some teenager.”
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I was recently at a charity event for a children’s hospital. It’s one of the largest and most elaborate parties of the year, raising millions of dollars for sick kids. After the live auction and the philanthropic portion of the evening was over, the lights dimmed and out came a troupe of women dressed in black lingerie. It was some sort of performance of All That Jazz gone very wrong. The intent was to thank the male patrons for their generosity, but the women on boxes, in spotlights, grinding away, made the little old ladies in the crowd lose their dentures—and made everyone else incredibly uncomfortable.
I know more than one beautiful, happily married woman who has confided in me that she is obsessed with wanting to go into a strip club to see what really goes on. They women say they want to “de-mystify” the power of naked women in a room full of guys. Of those who have gone, most come home even more confused than when they left, noting that they just need to get a boob job and shave their entire bodies to be attractive to the opposite sex.
Meanwhile, porn and the sex trade are exploding in size and usage, driven by the apparently insatiable male appetite, while priests and politicians keep providing fodder for the latest sex scandal. Let’s not even get started with professional athletes.
But what is the connection between male goodness and male lust? It seems, to be good you have to control your lust into a very narrowly defined box. It’s a test that most men fail miserably, often with catastrophic results.
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It’s one of those truths about life that artists have used as their core device to draw us in for centuries: that which we deny about ourselves grows stronger in the shadows than it ever would in the light. In modern society, that is nowhere more true than sexuality.
We are animals, after all. Anyone who has witnessed the birth of their own child has to acknowledge the existence of forces that are far beyond anything that can be rationally explained. The miracle of reproduction is breathtaking in its complexity and magnificence. So, too, is the immediate instinct to cuddle and love that tiny little pink bundle of life. There’s nothing rational about it. The feeling is purely animal.
As a young adult, I used to joke with my friends, perhaps in twisted despair, about how we felt the need to hide our feelings of lust, while we were actually most similar to baboons whose sexual patterns are far from monogamous. But on a recent trip to Africa, I was fascinated to discover the wide variety of mating patterns among different species of animals in the Masai Mara. Sure, the dominant male lion has his way with whichever female he wants, but the female Hyena does the same with the males. Female elephants control the social order, with men left to wander on their own. The jackals pair off for life.
In each case, sexuality is not up for debate. Instinct has established a well-worn path for the survival of the species.
What the hell happened to humans on this score? Is the male lust instinct some legacy of animal nature that threatens to bring down civilization? Or is it just something we, collectively, are too afraid to look at directly and, thereby, we give it way more power than it deserves?
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I was at a 50th wedding anniversary party a few years ago and the toast given by one of the sons was a humorous recounting of “the power of the penis” and how the marriage had endured despite that power.
One of the good things about hitting middle age is that the testosterone level wanes just a little bit and, hopefully, takes the edge off the “power of the penis.” Yet, there are all these guys within spitting distance of old-man diapers who marry teenaged women out of some twisted mixture of a desire for youth and beauty. I’m not going to try to dissect why the women in these pairings agree to the trade, but the pattern is profoundly odd when you think about it for too long.
I sometimes wonder what the world would look like if men were totally open about their lust? Would the sex trade still prosper? Would marriage change? Would our collective discomfort with gay marriage and lack of judgment of sexual exploitation in many forms shift?
Perhaps, the most vexing is the question: what would male lust itself, completely out in the open, really look like? Do we, as men, have a common animal ancestry that would come to the fore? Are we more like lions or jackals in our natural state? Are we all on the spectrum of bisexuality? Or is male lust a rainbow of colors, stifled by our discomfort with the male need for sexual encounter?
I have no answers. But I do think getting honest about male lust might go a long way toward righting some of the most persistent wrongs in our world.
Honest sex is a beautiful thing, perhaps the most treasured human experience possible. But too often, it gets twisted, tortured, and comes out in ways that destroy the object and the owner of that lust.
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image by kylelane66 / flickr
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I can see why so many of those commenting are along the same lines (and I couldn’t read all of them, took way too long). Women’s bodies are used for sex, objectification and procreation all the time, sometimes it feels like a woman’s body is not her own. No wonder so many women are hiding their post pregnancy bodies and feeling not up to par, when for many of them, their husbands acquire a beer belly and still talk about bits of their wives bodies like they are untouchable and ruined. Double standards still prevail and instead of thinking of… Read more »
It’s not today’s problem, men have done that since forever. Remember the times men could buy and sell women… whenever he didn’t want this wife anymore, he could just throw her on the streets, and they would do that A LOT, as it was permissible. Men only don’t do that anymore because women now make their own money (so they don’t end up on the streets), culture now values women a little bit more, even see them as more human now, and because society now molds/forces men to be or even fake being a little more lovable and fake believing… Read more »
Le sigh…I come to The Good Men Project to feel reassured that there are, in fact, good men out there. And often, I do feel reassured by what I read on this site. I truly appreciate the honesty in this article and I hate to be myopic, but my comments are going to be focused strictly on the opening paragraph and the fact that anyone could consider someone a wonderful husband who openly complains that his wife’s tits have been ruined through birthing HIS children, and that he was going to have to resort to sneaking around with porn and… Read more »
“I wouldn’t be surprised if this so-called “wonderful husband” is ironically a half-impotent picture of middle-aged male un-attractiveness himself.”
Most probably that’s exactly it.
Do you blame women for seeing men as selfish lust monsters who don’t take kindly to the ageing process? I don’t. Women’s bodies go through a lifetime of wear and tear and recovery from that is incredible. The way the body can heal after anything, from a lifetime of hard labour (such as being a miner) or pregnancy and childbirth, it’s a fascinating and incredible thing for the body to do. But to act like her body is ruined because she’s gone through the most dangerous and one of the most essential and one of the hardest and most painful… Read more »
I wasn’t saying either that work violence and particular the violence of war are NOT intimate. Yes, they involve gross violations of one’s body and soul, but again, people expect that. Unless there’s been some severe psychological damage/desensitization/compartmentalization (which unfortunately, there’s been a lot of in most cultures, in both men and women), the expectation of a sexual encounter is that it fosters positive intiimacy, trust and pair bonding, so using sex as a form of power abuse is worse than other kinds of power abuse.
Read more at https://staging.goodmenproject.com/featured-content/is-male-lust-turning-us-inside-out/#LBiOuHoyzLQPpSlz.99
It seems, to be good you have to control your lust into a very narrowly defined box.
We can not underestimate the the danger this outlook has for woman ,sexual slavery .trafficking of women and children , rape, also the break down in family life which equals breakdown in society.
So without change terrible suffering to so many people will continue .
All you men out there need to rethink and change you have a responsibility to do so.
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Sexual lust doesn’t cause rape…
And if you want to believe it does, why not apply that same thinking pattern towards women who were up to 20% of the perpetrators of child sexual abuse. Everyone needs to rethink life, and respect others, not JUST the men.
It’s not the cause, but one of the motivators. Even more when it comes to sexual slavery/trafficking.
This is a really refreshing, powerful article, one of the best, most honest articles, with the least PC-filtered, feminist-approved muffler on it. Powerful stuff. There was one line that frayed, though: “One of the good things about hitting middle age is that the testosterone level wanes just a little bit and, hopefully, takes the edge off the “power of the penis.” ” What a sad, self-defeating attitude. Healthy, athletic men who eat a hunter-gather diet can maintain high testosterone levels well into their 70’s & 80’s. Just ask Art De Vaney, a retired UCLA economist turned nutrition expert. There’s no… Read more »
Thanks for your post, but it would be nice if you didn’t knock feminism. That said, I also don’t think one’s testosterone level is necessarily caused by diet. It may be correlated, I don’t dispute that. Honestly I think genetics has a lot to do with it, and so for many men the decline might be inevitable.
“Oh, let’s not PC-filter men’s bullshit about how believe women are here in this world only to sexually satisfy them without even noticing their own lack of attractiveness, that’s so misandryyy. Why don’t feminists approve of men’s sexism, what a matriarchal society we live onnnn mgtow now and rape doesn’t exist” Hahaha! They *CAN*, but that is very, very rare. Most men after their 35’s are just not that virile anymore (compared to their teen or younger counterparts), and that’s just natural. Males in all nature aren’t supposed to procreate (and so have sex) after they get a little bit… Read more »
Sorry, but anyone who says that motherhood “ruined” his wife’s tits has issues. The fact that she has tits is a good thing, how about that? I am sorry to say it like this, but some people could really take a page out of the African American relationship workbook (and not the one you see in dumb ass music videos either). Throughout life I have rarely, if ever hear black men talking about their women’s bodies like that, and black guys love a great figure as much as anyone – but what seems to constitute a ‘great’ figure varies according… Read more »
i have to wonder how wonderful a husband a man can be if he feels that “His wife is quite beautiful, but mothering has “ruined her tits,” “. that mothering was caused in part by said “wonderful” husband, yet he feels entitled enough to say that she is somehow lesser now? where did he get this sense of entitlement? how much is he helping at home? has he gained any weight or lost some hair? how would his wife feel if she knew that he’d made such a comment?
Men, there is nothing wrong with your lust or your sexuality. As long as it is safe, sane, and consensual and within the agreements of your relationship if you are in one, go for it. This idea that human lust is some sort of uncontrollable beast that will destroy human society comes mostly from religion and patriarchy. There is no original sin and there is nothing wrong with you. The women who are trying to repress your sexuality and shame you for it are really just projecting their fear of their own sexuality on to you. They’ve internalized the oppression… Read more »
I had ignored this article until now. But, I see the commenting has been hot. The generalizations are hard to swallow.
” It’s a test that MOST MEN FAIL miserably, often with catastrophic results.”
Really? When did you have time to meet MOST MEN and get to know them well enough to make such a definitive statement about their sex lives? Come on. Let’s stay in touch with reality.
Frankly, if male lust were curbed, or even defeated outright, then – I’ll have to hand it to the condescending feminists out there- things would change for the better.
Feminism, enabled by weak men hoping to stay in the ladies’ favor, would itself wither and die if enough men did their thinking between their ears instead of between their legs.
Ooooh, it’s weak men the ones who see women as equals who should be respected as human beings and have the same chances in life. :O
Beautiful post. I feel that male sexuality is something that males are either friends with or enemies with. (Is their lust serving them or are they serving their lust?) I especially like your quote: “that which we deny about ourselves grows stronger in the shadows than it ever would in the light.” I agree. I think one of the main reasons why lust can be so destructive, is because males don’t always know what to do with it. They get mixed, confusing signals from society: deny it or suffer from social stigma (which leads to excessive prudeness and only marrying… Read more »
“Fornification with whores”…?
Some anti-prostitute prejudices in there, perhaps?
Sounds more like someone who just came here straight from Bible study or something equally pointless and mind-numbing.
Also, since when was rape ever caused by lust?
Yet another excellent point Thaddeus! Thank you!
Like some of the other posters on here, I find this post pretty disturbing. I think that the problem isn’t necessarily with lust, but rather with the sense that that lust should always be indulged. A lot of men seem to feel entitled to get what they want. They want a certain thing, and if their wife can’t provide it, well they can just go out and pay for it! Because the idea that maybe you just have to accept people as a whole for what they are (good wives, good mother, people with saggy breasts, fun to talk to,… Read more »
I don’t see much porn, rarely strippers and never prostitutes or one night stands. I’ve loved all the women I’ve been with for monogamous relationships, some are still even friends.
Staying with one person for the rest of your life is foolish thinking considering the divorce rates. Considering the divorce rates, getting married is foolish thinking.
Or, it could be that the divorce rates are fueled by all of the entitlement and unrealistic expectations and lying and covering up of activities and compartmentalizing. Just a thought.
Women are more likely to initiate divorce. 70% are initiated by women; 90%(in some areas) when there are children involved. The most often cited reason is some variation of ‘I just don’t feel fulfilled’.
So is the divorce rate fuelled by all the entitlement and unrealistic expectations of women?
I think both men and women can be equally prone to unrealistic expectations. I also wonder how many women file for divorce because they KNOW their husband has lost interest (like the man in Tom ‘s first example) and, yes, that situation is pretty unfulfilling in a relationship. I commented earlier that I would not want to stay in a marriage if I knew that my husband was repelled by my aging or post-baby body (assuming I was doing my best to stay in shape, but the damage caused by pregnancy and breast feeding is hard to fix and there… Read more »
@ Lindsay
“I don’t know many guys who worry about what will happen when they get a beer gut.”
Perhaps they simply don’t confide in you?
From the OP:
“I was at a 50th wedding anniversary party a few years ago and the toast given by one of the sons was a humorous recounting of “the power of the penis” and how the marriage had endured despite that power.”
Go back far enough and female sexuality was seen as corrosive to family and marriage. I wonder when the human race will do the next 180 in opinion.
“Perhaps they simply don’t confide in you? ” That could be true, but I think that the worry that women have is present culturally. I’ve heard (both in the media and in my personal life) of a woman getting breast implants for a guy, but I’ve never heard of a man getting cosmetic surgery for his wife. If women were as focused visually on guys, one would assume that there’s be more porn made for women, more strip clubs for women, and more sexy guys in ads. All of these pale in comparison to how women’s sexuality is sold to… Read more »
Female value tends to be about their looks, Male value tends to be about how he can provide. If you want to see the widespread pressure society puts on males just look at how much they’re pushed into earning a decent wage, how much monetary value seems to rule their life and how many women won’t date some broke “deadbeat” whereas plenty of men have and do date women with no cash. Also the rate of eating disorders for males is sharply rising, there is a very LARGE insecurity of penile size and yes men get surgery for this. Plenty… Read more »
Plenty of women also have and do date men with no cash. So? Male value is actually their personality (confidence, charm, passion), their personal values. That’s what matters the most to most women. Female value is their looks, that you got right, that’s what matters the most to most men. Much less women scrutinize overweight men than the other way around. Plenty of overweight men get relationships with fitter women than the other way around. Like, there are statistics about it. Women in general have a higher chance of getting sex because men say no less often, they are conditioned… Read more »
AMEN, sista.
It seems a shame that we still cannot educate men to the damage there is in seeing woman as sex objects,
We can not underestimate the the danger this outlook has for woman ,sexual slavery .trafficking of women and children , rape, also the break down in family life which equals breakdown in society.
So without change terrible suffering to so many people will continue .
All you men out there need to rethink and change you have a responsibility to do so.
.
I refuse to believe a fundamental fact about male biology is somehow ‘wrong,’ and in need of change. Too often the biological fact of attraction is politicized with this notion of ‘sexual objectification.’ There is nothing political about male sexual lust as such, any more than the act of ovulation is political.
Sexual objectification will only be a meaningful concept if it is made clear that what is decried is not the brute biological fact of arousal, but rather a deleterious ideology that makes some men unable to reconcile attraction with respect.
“I refuse to believe a fundamental fact about male biology is somehow ‘wrong,’ and in need of change. ” I completely disagree. I don’t understand why people think that because something is “natural” that it’s “good”. Take violence, for example. I don’t think that there’s anyone who would disagree that it’s human nature to act violently (even little children hit, after all), but I never hear anyone going around complaining that this very nature is being suppressed because he can’t punch his boss in the face every time he feels like it. Humans aren’t animals – it’s up to us,… Read more »
Does it occur to you guys that something might not be neither good nor bad, but simply something that exists?
When something is “natural”, it’s very hard to change. Violence comes in many forms, after all, and whether or not we like it, I have yet to meet more than a handful of humans – men and women – who don’t engage in it.
“something might not be neither good nor bad, but simply something that exists”
I think if you browse the comments on here, you’d see that male lust can be pretty bad for women a lot of the time. To imply that it’s “neither good nor bad” really turns a blind eye to all of the hurt it can cause.
How about female lust? * Almost 3% of men reported forced sex and 22% reported verbal coercion in a romantic relationship in the last year. Almost 2.3% of women reported forced sex and 25% reported verbal coercion. [From: Predictors of Sexual Coercion.]( http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/ID45-PR45.pdf) * 95% of sexually abused youth in correctional facilities reported being abused by female staff. [From Sexual Victimization in Juvenile Facilities, 2008-09](http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svjfry09.pdf) * Among inmates reporting staff sexual misconduct, ~ 65% reported a female aggressor. [From Sexual Victimization in Prisons and Jails Reported by Inmates, 2008-09](http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri0809.pdf) * 50% of homeless youth reported being sexually abused by a… Read more »
Yeah, and I think male lust is also quite enjoyed by a lot of women, too.
I would say that the problem isn’t “male lust”, but abuse of power. I wopuld say that the major reason people see this abuse of power is that it coems with a sexual tag. When it isn’t sexual, folks tend to ignore it.
I agree with you on this actually. However, I don’t think this is illogical. Well, it’s illogical to the extent that people shouldn’t ignore any abuse of power. But I don’t think it’s illogical or accidental that power abuse is seen as more especially egregious when it happens in one’s own home or body (where one is supposed to be able to find solace and intimacy) as opposed to in the workforce, on the battlefield, etc. where people expect to be abused and don’t expect any quarter.
Sexual abuse, in other words, is not only an abuse of power but a violation of the trust that is expected of a sexual partner.
I guess that naturalizes the belief that a sexual partner should be more trusted than other kinds of partners. Well I personally might agree with that, I see lots of examples in the historical and ethnographic record that indicate that said belief is pretty culturally contigent.
Also, I’m not sure about sexual violence being intimate and work violence NOT being intimate. Both involve pretty gross violations of one’s body.
I don’t think this belief is all that culturally contingent (and I got into that a little more in the other thread about prostitution). I think rather that some cultures have subjugated this idea more than others, out of brute necessity and/or the desire for power and control. Certainly I don’t think, anyway, that if you could plunk two people of any culture into a trusting sexual relationship they would deny its life affirming nature. But unfortunately most cultural constructs make it difficult for that to happen, even though sometimes it accidentally does anyway. People manage to fall in love… Read more »
The problem to my mind becomes “trusting sexual relationship”, which is a huge construct, the content of which is not at all objectively obvious to everyone, all around the world. As a simple “ferinstance” of where this can lead, I suggest that you watch “How Tasty Was My Little Frenchman”, a Brazilian film (almost certainly available on Youtube). Here’s the wikilink to it: http://en. wikipedia.org/wiki/ How_Tasty_Was_My_Little_Frenchman By that, I mean to say that intimacy has been used in a lot of strange ways in human history which belies the notion that there’s one, intercultural, form of “trusting sexual relationships” which… Read more »
To Thaddeus:
Yes, horny man have helped women. Women have gotten jewelry and dinners and $$$$ thanks to male lust.
When women are used and tossed aside, of course they’ll get mad. I’m not sure if its about abuse of power per se.
Most men weren’t even around when the sexual revolution happened so it’s really hard to blame them. We are biologically sexual creatures and men have nothing to be ashamed of.
it’s only natural for men to be attracted to beautiful women.
I really dont think most men mind. They dont see anything wrong with reducing women to parts. It’s the nature of the beast. They are very, very different. I once told a man I only wanted him for his penis, and HE LOVED IT. Now try that with a woman you wont get very far most of the time. I think men like to be objectified themselves and dont understand why a woman wouldn’t like it. I think women want to be valued for who they are on the inside, but men focus on the physical. It’s the nature of… Read more »
Your mentality is exactly the point that this article is attempting to address, of allowing us men to better understand and be more honest about our sexuality without your shaming us and accusing us of thought crimes that must be suppressed.
I vote for a rainbow of colors.
“It seems, to be good you have to control your lust into a very narrowly defined box.”
You sound like a fundamentalist there, but who defines what is good and what is men’s motivation to conform? It’s hardly a widespread social influence anymore, sex is plentiful and men are choosing to be free from the social constraints of marriage and fundamentalist opinion.
Nearly all men (and most women, I’d wager) walk the line between repressing and expressing their physical lust. This isn’t a fundamentalist attitude, it’s common sense. Most men over the age of 15 have long since learned that ogling a woman’s chest is a good way to get smacked upside the head. This has nothing to do with marriage customs and everything to do with social pressures.
This article is less about monogamy and more about the intersection of biology and social norms.
It’s socialization and it changes with time. The sexual revolution let the cat out of the bag a long time ago. Trying to manipulate the socialization back in time and calling it good is a fundamentalist attitude. Monogamy is a social norm, not a biological one.
Actually, that’s biologically untrue Bad Man. If we are going to be totally honest, humans (women AND men) are both programmed for monogamy AND for having multiple partners. Both biological practices serve a purpose. That’s why it comes down to what *you* choose. Monogamy isn’t just a social norm. It is infact also a biological one. But so is diversity in partners. You ultimately choose what is best for you. Further, down below you mentioned how men shouldn’t feel ashamed for liking beautiful women. They shouldn’t, this is true. But no one said they should to begin with. I think… Read more »
Dear Erin, As is so common on this site, I think you’re making a common layman’s mistake, equating “pair-bonding” with “monogamy”. The two aren’t necessarily the same. In many human cultures, people are pair-bonded but also, in fact, have other sexual partners. There’s tons of ethnographic evidence regarding this. As for women being “biologically programmed” to look for men with money, that’s a rather odd claim, given that the human race has been biologically stable for at least 50,000 years and money has only existed for 10,000 or so. It gets even odded when you realize that for most of… Read more »
These biological arguments never get anyone anywhere because they’re literally impossible to prove scientifically – it’s all speculation. Furthermore, understanding why a behavior may or may not occur doesn’t do anything to justify it.
Thaddeus – Next time can I get some french fries with that condescending attitude. I’m not biologist or historian and I certainly don’t read every little piece of scientific data or historic dissertation that comes through, but I shouldn’t have to to have a worth while opinion. I do know that nature is about balance. Just because butterflies fly in my stomach when I see Ryan Gosling, doesn’t mean I don’t ultimately desire a committed monogamous relationship. Or that I would over-throw that for the fleeting butterfly stomach feeling. Naturally, in different people, different chemicals are going to be stronger… Read more »
Dear Erin, I’m sorry you find my attittude condescending. There’s no way to say “You’re wrong”, however, without sounding either a) aggressive or b) condescending on some level to at least some people. I try to avoid both extremes and I think I’ve done a pretty good job in my post to you above. I agree that you have the right to an opinion. That right, however, doesn’t extend to having other people AGREE with your opinion. If I’m respondiong to your opinion, it means that I’m taking it seriously: if I thought you were a nutter, I wouldn’t bother.… Read more »
“The problems with biodeterminism are well known. My main beef with them, however, is that people tend to use a very poor knowledge of human biological history to cast whatever they personally feel as some sort of natural and predetermined response to the world. They cast their personal reactions, then, as the “normal” by which the rest of humanity is to be judged.” Yes, I agree that the biodeterminism argument is fraught with problems, whether or not the person making the argument has a sufficient grounding in biology or anthropology. Knowledge of biology and anthropology are certainly useful in charting… Read more »
No doubt, LF. I hear that “I can’t help cheating on my wife because men are hardwired to want lots of young attractive partners” shit from practically every monger that shows up in Rio [roll eyes]. I always respond with “OK, fair go: let’s assume it’s biology making you do this. If that’s the case, why do you need to pop viagra tabas as if they were vitamin C every day before hitting the zona? I mean, where’s that biological drive you’re on about THEN?” I don’t buy the “stabilize/destabilize society” argument, though. We have no reasonable metrics for that… Read more »
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/252872.php We learned about this just last semester, and one of the ladies in my internship class did her summer research project assisting with the University of Georgia in Atlanta on this subject. Basically, what they have found is that when a male is pair-bonded already, oxytocin encourages monogamous behaviour. Does it make men”crave” monogamy? No, that’s a stretch, but the relationship is there. Perhaps that is all AFAIK was referring to. Note, for those hoping to use this as support for ‘monogamy is biologically programmed’ arguments, that oxytocin did not encourage monogamous behaviour in single males. A previously established… Read more »
Erin,
Please show me the scientific evidence that proves humans are sexually monogamous creatures.
Erin,
Monogamy is as much of a choice as are heterosexuality or homosexuality.
If the latter is true, so is the former.
Sadly, the days and times we are living in Shouts to the entire world social Norm is undefinable anymore.The only guys that does not really wrestle with this issue of lusting after women were sexually abused by men and lust/crave dick more so than a set of titties. Just as sure as most of guys speak of our rape experiences, declaring that a female was the cause of them being traumatized by rape while at the same time wrestle like hell with the embarrassment of even speaking on the subject.. If the women matures biologically faster than we do, I… Read more »
And the more I wtch Law and Order, the first 48, NCIS and a few others, I’d rather just stick to dressing them up in my mind the as a Cheerleader/Majorrette and the men what he’d look like as Drummajor or attempt to picture him in Cowboy gear/ Western Wear.
A small note would be to clarify that humans are most closely related to Bonobos, whose societal structure is more dominated by female bonobos, and homosexual tendencies are the norm. Most females pair off into same sex couples, males couples are slightly less common. http://www.popsci.com/science/gallery/2011-09/gallery-gay-animals?image=1 As with many of the topics on this site, I feel that if adults are respectful of each other and honest, they can openly talk about their lust with others. In my experience, people frequently bring it up in private conversation. Often they already have a partner, but still want me to be aware of… Read more »
I don’t want to quibble but humans are equally related to both chimps and bonobos. Our line split off from the common ancestor of both chimps and bonobos 5-7 million years ago. Chimps and bonobos split off from each other only about a million years ago when their population became geographically separated by the Congo River.
I also found this to be lovely.
http://www.edenfantasys.com/sexis/body/colonization-sacred-breast-1027111/
To add a bit of levity to this discussion, I’d like to reference Flight of The Conchords “Boom”
“She’s so hot she makes me sexist.” Perhaps a truer statement was never said?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-sawvtJxDI&feature=player_embedded#!
LF and yet, I hear men on MRA forums discuss women like all they are are “holes.” That they’d hit whatever offers itself even if its a “6 or under” so that belies the whole “we can’t get turned on thing.” I realize this blog is designed for men to feel good and feel better about being men. One thing I’m learning from reading it? Is how sad the state of affairs of communication and understanding between men and women is, and how I’m not sure we generally like each other all that much. What i hear on this blog… Read more »
Julie – I’ve felt that way myself about men. That maybe they just don’t really like women unless they are the really good looking ones that offer them the beauty they seek to possess. The girls we see in Maxim, or the young women in strip clubs and porn or Hooters… I don’t think it’s really the whole truth. I think that men also probably have felt the same way about women. And I don’t have an answer to that statement because sometimes that feeling still creeps up on me. But I do know that this blog is a good… Read more »
Julie and Erin, you’re hearing (at least in part) some of the unspoken confusion and resentment that all men in our society experience but are culturally not allowed to express. Some of it will indeed be angry at women… and in some cases, for good reason. A larger chunk of it will be outrage toward the way our society treats continues to set expectations for men that are unreasonable and unfair, which should certainly sound familiar to any woman. Do we like women? You bet we do–but we also, at times, resent them, get fed up with them, and even… Read more »
I see…so women deserver your anger..at least “in some cases, for good reason”. I don’t have an issue with men being frustrated and fed up with society expectations of men that they feel are unreasonable and unfair. But you don’t get to take it out on women as a collective group Copyleft. I am too frustrated and fed up with society expectations or women that *I* feel are unreasonable and unfair. That doesn’t mean I get to take it out on men, justify “anger” toward men, and act like I’m doing something productive in that. We all know that angry… Read more »
Thanks Lisa. I tried to get into “elevating non physical qualities,” and even physical ones that maybe aren’t such obvious stereotypes, in the comments of Marcus’ article where he didn’t understand why a lot of women were put off by his story of his flirtation with the hot chick on the cruise. But at least in that thread, the guys were having none of it. According to those commenters, a man can never have sex with a woman he isn’t physically attracted to, he is hardwired to be physically attracted to certain characteristics, and he can’t “will himself” into an… Read more »
My aha here is that out of 120 comments, how many of them are about looks and physical attractiveness. Even the most thoughtful comments — aren’t we just perpetuating the stereotype that male lust is predominately based on physical attraction? Rather than more honesty, I’d rather hear stories about guys who lusted after qualities *other* than female attractiveness. Surely there must be some, right? Let’s start changing the dialogue by actually changing the dialogue. Elevate non-physical qualities to the point where men (and women!) lust after those. Also — anyone on this comment thread who would like to contribute a… Read more »
It’s quite demoralizing, Lisa, to read so many comments and posts on this site focused purely on the attractiveness of women. I get it. People like to be attracted to each other. I do too. But there are more qualities, as you mention, that are hot, sexy, fiery, compelling. I want to believe that men see those and connect to them but for some reason are simply ashamed to admit it. But maybe not. Maybe it’s all just looks? FYI, I loved your post on beauty addiction, though it also made me sad. I see myself in it, and other… Read more »
To add a bit of levity to this discussion, I’d like to reference Flight of The Conchords “Boom”
“She’s so hot she makes me sexist.” Perhaps a truer statement was never said?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-sawvtJxDI&feature=player_embedded#!
Lisa, I’ve got a story for you and no, I don’t want it published. I am not a writer and have no desire to be one. I am flat-chested and always have been. Two children left me even more flat-chested than before. Disappointing, yes. I’m hoping that menopause will deliver to me the breasts I thought I’d get back when I was 13. 😉 Regardless of my lack of breasts, I have had zero men turn me down for dates or sex because of them. Actually, few men ever turn me down unless they’re in a closed relationship. My ex-husband… Read more »
This guy has no one but himself to blame. He’s the one who got her pregnant, and these are some of the consequences of getting someone pregnant. If you don’t want your sex partner to go through the physical changes of motherhood, then don’t get her pregnant. He made choices, and he needs to accept the consequences of those choices.
He was probably thinking of breasts when they were having the sex that created the pregnancy that resulted in the changes to her breasts that he doesn’t like. Hoist on his own petard.
A “wonderful” husband who convinces himself that his ONLY two options both involve deceiving and/or replacing his wife? If that is wonderful, sign me up for the convent. What is wonderful about his immaturity? That he hasn’t brought a stripper home to the marital bed and made love to his wife while looking at the stripper’s breasts? What right does he have to insist that HE have access to perfect breasts for all of his life? Has he not wondered WHY he has this fixation that reduces him to self-deception and deceiving his wife? Somewhere between his narcissistic entitlement and… Read more »
Yeah, that about sums it up… 🙁
Tom, would being totally open about your lust mean that the man in your first example would tell is wife that he hates her ruined breasts and fantasizes about other women with better breasts? Because otherwise, I’m not really getting what you mean in this article. Maybe you could clarify.
Tom, I would like clarification about this, too. Because I’m really having a hard time about what would be an appropriate response when someone’s “truth” is that offensive and hurtful.
Secretly resorting to porn and strip clubs doesn’t sound very wonderful to me, either, but if a wife doesn’t have a problem with her husband enjoying those things, I don’t think either of things are automatically bad. Cheating with a teenager would be a terrible thing to do, but if it never goes beyond fantasy, I don’t think having the fantasy would be enough to disqualify him from being a wonderful husband. The reaction I’m having a hard time relating to is that it’s “disturbing” that a wonderful husband could stop finding his wife’s breasts attractive, like that makes him… Read more »
Sorry, this was intended as a reply to Anonymous at October 27, 2011 at 1:41 pm above. I lost the threading on an inadvertent page reload.
It isn’t the breasts per se, but the reaction to it. We don’t know from the anecdote if the wife is fine with him seeking that breast-stimulation or not. That isn’t detailed in the story so far as I could tell. We also don’t know if they are having sex or not, but apparently his need for breasts is so strong that he wants to avoid a melt down in the marriage. True fax, tits change after childbirth. Don’t want to lose the tits? Adopt or get a breast job. I mean…surely he could have discerned that. It seems like… Read more »
LOL… no kidding! So many mind blowing things about this story. I guess we should thank Tom for telling it, though – it certainly has made for interesting (if depressing) discussion!
And no, the wife isn’t fine with it – Tom says the guy told him that is wife would freak out if she found out.
Marrying someone, making a commitment for the long-term, an adult has to know and understand that over time and with age their partners body is going to change and probably not for the better. This man is NOT a “wonderful husband”. He is not, in my opinion, a man – he is a boy. I hope for his wife’s sake that he grows up.
Marcus, I don’t think there are honestly many wives who are genuinely OK with their husbands going to strip clubs and checking out a bunch of younger women with nicer tits. I don’t think many men would be if the tables were turned, either. But there are women who will put up with this because they think it might save their marriage, or keep him from cheating. That’s a horrible situation to put someone in. It’s no crime to miss body parts that you used to be attracted to and have changed. It’s how you respond to it that makes… Read more »
I would also venture to say that women put up with it because they don’t feel like they’re able to say “no”. It’s so commonly accepted that men “just need” it and that “boys will be boys” and all of that. Women just feel helpless when they should really have a conversation like the one that we’re having here. Something along the lines of “just because you like it, doesn’t mean that you can purchase it whenever you want.”